You’re not wrong. I generally hold my tongue on this topic as I have lots of skin in the game, having started now two roasting companies (Tonx & Yes Plz) premised on the idea that you can make coffee at home much better than the current crop of third wave coffeebars—if the roaster is doing their job well. There was an era, more than a decade ago, where new indie shops and roasters opened and presented something new, with a distinct style, and a real dedication to quality. Today we’re left with this template that sort of works, a set of best practices that kind of deliver something good, and a lot of reputable roasting companies and professionals who mistake bending their goalposts down to the grass around what tastes good with being unpretentious. Very few shops swing for the fences anymore, and lots of inside-baseball trends around mediocre but weird experimental processes and super rare coffees to make shops/baristas feel like there’s still a vanguard to join up with. Plenty of snobbery still, just not much of it that actually lands in your cup. There’s more decent coffee in more places than ever before but arguably fewer places to have a really wow experience than 10-15 years ago.
"There’s more decent coffee in more places than ever before but arguably fewer places to have a really wow experience than 10-15 years ago."
100% my experience. but i also blame us, the consumers. Wow experience is generally some combination of beans, prep, environment, hospitality, etc. Something we should be ready to pay closer to cocktail prices for (if you're staying at the coffee shop for 30-45m), rather than yell "this is outrageous" every time the price on a cup ticks up to match inflation, ethical sourcing, living wages, etc.
I can't drink coffee anymore (gerd) but got into it heavily (3 espresso machines, customized, roasting beans, etc) but when I was, and I lived in Williamsburg brooklyn & Manhattan where people pretend to know what they are doing, by and large they don't seem to. I blame this on management. I watched a coffee training for staff at a place called Marlow & Sons in Brooklyn (sort of known by locals for their coffee) and it was pretty sad. So were their espresso shots. You can only really get out of the coffee what the staff want to get out of it. And that's as random as finding good food. Just because a restaurant lists fine ingredients on their menu doesn't mean they pull off the dish well. Same with coffee. I was shocked at how bad a lot of the shots were. I also went to Kauai coffee plantation in ... well, Kauai (didn't see that coming) and the shots they were pulling there were so bad I couldn't drink them - that was in their coffee sample cafe. Go figure.
I have also been thinking about this a lot. As someone who owns every coffee tool under the sun and was constantly disappointed by the $5+ cup. I think you nailed it. It is all about expectation setting — if a specialty shop is going to claim to be specialty coffee with a high price tag, people will expect exceptional tasting coffee. If it misses the mark they supremely over-promised and under delivered.
I have resorted to DD / Sbux bc you know what you are getting every time. Consistency > 1 amazing cup and 10 bad cups. If I find myself at a specialty shop, I always go for the cold coffee bc its a lot more consistent (usually), even if it is still $$$.
Absolutely agree. Value is highly dependent on each person and what they find important when purchasing coffee away from the home. I think my point is that the whole value proposition from “better / 3rd wave / etc.” coffee shop is that their coffee is supposed to be better than a Sbux / DD. For me personally, it is a hard value proposition when the quality is often inconsistent at many of these shops.
As someone who optimizes my coffee at home but still goes to cafes often, I broadly agree with the thesis that the value represented by “good” coffee in a lot of modern cafes isn’t great (and really bad in expensive cities like NY, Boston or Toronto). High end places like Sey or La Cabra have optimized their pourover workflow so that the investment is worth it for me at those cafes, but otherwise I just get an espresso drink with milk if I need caffeine quickly. (I still refuse to go to Dunkin or Blank Street on principle)
Mr. Melted Cheese: I've been drinking "good coffee" since the late 1970s when I was introduced to good brew while going to school in Portland, OR. My experience teaches me that good coffee is primarily a function of high quality beans roasted properly (tending to dark), brewed 2T per 6 oz water (any water), served timely and not kept on a hot burner for an excessive period of time. Another big problem with the also ran's in the coffee business is that they do not have access to the highest quality beans available to the big boys, Peets and Starbucks. Third, they do not have the benefit of volume price discounts available to the big boys and therefore cannot offer the most competitive pricing on same quality brewed beans. Finally, the also ran's in the business don't have access to the training programs available to the baristas at the big boys which help to ensure consistent high quality preparation. It is tough to compete in any business but now the coffee business is a mature business with established players making entry into the business very risky. How would you like to enter the toothpaste business and compete with Colgate and P&G? Nuff said.
Mr. Melted Cheese: I've been drinking "good coffee" since the late 1970s when I was introduced to good brew while going to school in Portland, OR. My experience teaches me that good coffee is primarily a function of high quality beans roasted properly (tending to dark), brewed 2T per 6 oz water (any water), served timely and not kept on a hot burner for an excessive period of time. Another big problem with the also ran's in the coffee business is that they do not have access to the highest quality beans available to the big boys, Peets and Starbucks. Third, they do not have the benefit of volume price discounts available to the big boys and therefore cannot offer the most competitive pricing on same quality brewed beans. Finally, the also ran's in the business don't have access to the training programs available to the baristas at the big boys which help to ensure consistent high quality preparation. It is tough to compete in any business but now the coffee business is a mature business with established players making entry into the business very risky. How would you like to enter the toothpaste business and compete with Colgate and P&G? Nuff said.
I have noticed that if I walk into an unfamiliar coffee place and they don't have a big urn of pre-made coffee, the custom coffee I buy will cost upward of $7...
Disapointingly, in my city (major French city), more often than not coffe is crap. Anything from a chain of stores certainly (I try Starbucks once a year... they're calling themselves a coffee shop ????) , and it's barely 50/50 from from independent restaurant/bars. To the point where I'd rather they serve Nespresso than some burnt, stale stuff.
I'm not even being fancy at home (French Press + coffee from an actual coffee retailer), but it's better than 90% of the stuff I drink when out. Last time I ran out of grounds I bought the most expensive pack from my supermarket (by some three-star chef) and.. threw it away: not so much burnt as charcoaled.
I tell people the same thing about Starbucks vs. Dunkin. If I'm out of town and just want a coffee, I like to just get Dunkin's original roast. Hot, black. It tastes fine to me. Starbucks, however, unless you get their nitro cold brew or something, does not have a good taste to it black. I have to cover up the taste with other crap, and I really just like my black coffee.
Good rant, sincerely. But isn't this ultimately about time? If you have it, you stay and seek out the experience of someone taking the time to make you good coffee. If you don't... well, money isn't a great substitute for time, but at least you get slightly better coffee.
I leave it to someone else to connect this all the way back to CAPITALISM!@#!@. I mean, it *does* go there...
I think they were saying Starbucks is responsible for making Americans more conscious of coffee an experience choice with options beyond the vacuum sealed cans I remember from my childhood grocery stores. It is a reasonable argument, and not the same thing as saying Starbucks makes good coffee. They were the first to deliver a consistent coffee house experience at massive scale.
You’re not wrong. I generally hold my tongue on this topic as I have lots of skin in the game, having started now two roasting companies (Tonx & Yes Plz) premised on the idea that you can make coffee at home much better than the current crop of third wave coffeebars—if the roaster is doing their job well. There was an era, more than a decade ago, where new indie shops and roasters opened and presented something new, with a distinct style, and a real dedication to quality. Today we’re left with this template that sort of works, a set of best practices that kind of deliver something good, and a lot of reputable roasting companies and professionals who mistake bending their goalposts down to the grass around what tastes good with being unpretentious. Very few shops swing for the fences anymore, and lots of inside-baseball trends around mediocre but weird experimental processes and super rare coffees to make shops/baristas feel like there’s still a vanguard to join up with. Plenty of snobbery still, just not much of it that actually lands in your cup. There’s more decent coffee in more places than ever before but arguably fewer places to have a really wow experience than 10-15 years ago.
"There’s more decent coffee in more places than ever before but arguably fewer places to have a really wow experience than 10-15 years ago."
100% my experience. but i also blame us, the consumers. Wow experience is generally some combination of beans, prep, environment, hospitality, etc. Something we should be ready to pay closer to cocktail prices for (if you're staying at the coffee shop for 30-45m), rather than yell "this is outrageous" every time the price on a cup ticks up to match inflation, ethical sourcing, living wages, etc.
I can't drink coffee anymore (gerd) but got into it heavily (3 espresso machines, customized, roasting beans, etc) but when I was, and I lived in Williamsburg brooklyn & Manhattan where people pretend to know what they are doing, by and large they don't seem to. I blame this on management. I watched a coffee training for staff at a place called Marlow & Sons in Brooklyn (sort of known by locals for their coffee) and it was pretty sad. So were their espresso shots. You can only really get out of the coffee what the staff want to get out of it. And that's as random as finding good food. Just because a restaurant lists fine ingredients on their menu doesn't mean they pull off the dish well. Same with coffee. I was shocked at how bad a lot of the shots were. I also went to Kauai coffee plantation in ... well, Kauai (didn't see that coming) and the shots they were pulling there were so bad I couldn't drink them - that was in their coffee sample cafe. Go figure.
thank you for this! it's all YES for me!
I have also been thinking about this a lot. As someone who owns every coffee tool under the sun and was constantly disappointed by the $5+ cup. I think you nailed it. It is all about expectation setting — if a specialty shop is going to claim to be specialty coffee with a high price tag, people will expect exceptional tasting coffee. If it misses the mark they supremely over-promised and under delivered.
I have resorted to DD / Sbux bc you know what you are getting every time. Consistency > 1 amazing cup and 10 bad cups. If I find myself at a specialty shop, I always go for the cold coffee bc its a lot more consistent (usually), even if it is still $$$.
The lesson of Sbux is to sell consistent experience and make it massively available. That isn't the same thing as selling great coffee.
Absolutely agree. Value is highly dependent on each person and what they find important when purchasing coffee away from the home. I think my point is that the whole value proposition from “better / 3rd wave / etc.” coffee shop is that their coffee is supposed to be better than a Sbux / DD. For me personally, it is a hard value proposition when the quality is often inconsistent at many of these shops.
As someone who optimizes my coffee at home but still goes to cafes often, I broadly agree with the thesis that the value represented by “good” coffee in a lot of modern cafes isn’t great (and really bad in expensive cities like NY, Boston or Toronto). High end places like Sey or La Cabra have optimized their pourover workflow so that the investment is worth it for me at those cafes, but otherwise I just get an espresso drink with milk if I need caffeine quickly. (I still refuse to go to Dunkin or Blank Street on principle)
Mr. Melted Cheese: I've been drinking "good coffee" since the late 1970s when I was introduced to good brew while going to school in Portland, OR. My experience teaches me that good coffee is primarily a function of high quality beans roasted properly (tending to dark), brewed 2T per 6 oz water (any water), served timely and not kept on a hot burner for an excessive period of time. Another big problem with the also ran's in the coffee business is that they do not have access to the highest quality beans available to the big boys, Peets and Starbucks. Third, they do not have the benefit of volume price discounts available to the big boys and therefore cannot offer the most competitive pricing on same quality brewed beans. Finally, the also ran's in the business don't have access to the training programs available to the baristas at the big boys which help to ensure consistent high quality preparation. It is tough to compete in any business but now the coffee business is a mature business with established players making entry into the business very risky. How would you like to enter the toothpaste business and compete with Colgate and P&G? Nuff said.
Mr. Melted Cheese: I've been drinking "good coffee" since the late 1970s when I was introduced to good brew while going to school in Portland, OR. My experience teaches me that good coffee is primarily a function of high quality beans roasted properly (tending to dark), brewed 2T per 6 oz water (any water), served timely and not kept on a hot burner for an excessive period of time. Another big problem with the also ran's in the coffee business is that they do not have access to the highest quality beans available to the big boys, Peets and Starbucks. Third, they do not have the benefit of volume price discounts available to the big boys and therefore cannot offer the most competitive pricing on same quality brewed beans. Finally, the also ran's in the business don't have access to the training programs available to the baristas at the big boys which help to ensure consistent high quality preparation. It is tough to compete in any business but now the coffee business is a mature business with established players making entry into the business very risky. How would you like to enter the toothpaste business and compete with Colgate and P&G? Nuff said.
this entire article, but instead it's about how heavy metal isnt 'heavy' anymore
I have noticed that if I walk into an unfamiliar coffee place and they don't have a big urn of pre-made coffee, the custom coffee I buy will cost upward of $7...
The most money to be made in coffee is where the highest price tolerance meets the unsophisticated palette.
Disapointingly, in my city (major French city), more often than not coffe is crap. Anything from a chain of stores certainly (I try Starbucks once a year... they're calling themselves a coffee shop ????) , and it's barely 50/50 from from independent restaurant/bars. To the point where I'd rather they serve Nespresso than some burnt, stale stuff.
I'm not even being fancy at home (French Press + coffee from an actual coffee retailer), but it's better than 90% of the stuff I drink when out. Last time I ran out of grounds I bought the most expensive pack from my supermarket (by some three-star chef) and.. threw it away: not so much burnt as charcoaled.
I tell people the same thing about Starbucks vs. Dunkin. If I'm out of town and just want a coffee, I like to just get Dunkin's original roast. Hot, black. It tastes fine to me. Starbucks, however, unless you get their nitro cold brew or something, does not have a good taste to it black. I have to cover up the taste with other crap, and I really just like my black coffee.
Good rant, sincerely. But isn't this ultimately about time? If you have it, you stay and seek out the experience of someone taking the time to make you good coffee. If you don't... well, money isn't a great substitute for time, but at least you get slightly better coffee.
I leave it to someone else to connect this all the way back to CAPITALISM!@#!@. I mean, it *does* go there...
> "I don’t know at least a little about"
...
proceeds to put thousands of words on page.
...
Still has no fucking clue, while expressing an american coffee culture centric view saying *starbucks* is responsable for *good coffee*.
*SLOW CLAPS*
I think they were saying Starbucks is responsible for making Americans more conscious of coffee an experience choice with options beyond the vacuum sealed cans I remember from my childhood grocery stores. It is a reasonable argument, and not the same thing as saying Starbucks makes good coffee. They were the first to deliver a consistent coffee house experience at massive scale.
Bodega coffee is pretty tasty....
Spot on. We now call amateurs experts.